Anglo-German War Post-Invasion of 1950

23 Jan

I’ve had a number of requests for a sequel to The Invasion of 1950, which surprised me by becoming a reasonable success on Amazon. Accordingly, I’ve been considering the overall course of the war after the German failure to conquer Britain and Himmler’s accession to succeed Hitler as Fuhrer. Somehow, I don’t think Himmler (or Churchill) would just try to end the war after that mishap. <grin>

As I see it, the Germans probably won’t have the capability to launch another invasion of Britain. They’d be forced to follow a Middle Eastern plan instead, building up in Libya, overrunning Malta … and then heading through Egypt to Palestine and Iraq. Nazi planners would see the Middle East as a potential hotbed of support as well as a source of oil and the springboard to India. Iran might well switch sides and join the Germans as soon as it was safe to do so, as the UK was … unpopular at the time. (The joint UK/Russia occupation of Iran ended in this timeline after Moscow fell, leaving the Iranians with a grudge.)

The wild card in all of this is Japan. There was no Pearl Harbour in this timeline; instead, the Japanese spent years trying to subdue an increasingly restive and resistant China. The Germans couldn’t offer the Japanese much, at least at first, to make up for the risk of attacking Britain and perhaps dragging the United States into the war. OTOH, Britain could offer the Japanese a great deal. But would the Japanese be willing to take it?

Another major issue is that of atomic science. The world’s atomic programs slowed down considerably in this timeline, after the US didn’t enter the war. The Nazis had the additional disadvantage of sneering at atomics, considering it Jewish science. This might well change if some cunning German scientist rebrands the work as his own, maybe with a fig-leaf about how Einstein et al took it from him when he was a grad student or something along those lines. I suspect that the Germans will have the resources to throw into a faster program, after losing the battle for Britain. Churchill will have to work hard to counteract the Nazi threat by open sabotage, which will be tricky. Parachute attack on the Nazi complex, anyone? It was done once.

Rockets are another interesting point. I think the Germans could have produced very basic recon satellites at that point, if they threw resources into it. Another problem for the UK to overcome.

In the long term, though, the Germans have a major advantage in manpower and technology. Bringing the US into the war might be the only way to even the odds. But would the Germans be stupid enough to launch something akin to Pearl Harbour in this timeline?

Thoughts?

Chris

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30 Responses to “Anglo-German War Post-Invasion of 1950”

  1. Ira Tabankin January 23, 2014 at 5:19 pm #

    I very much like the idea of a follow on book, here are my thoughts, Germany does continue with rocket science, they build the V1, V2 and latter develop the V3, jet fighters and a jet bomber all because they’ve never given up on the idea of conquering the UK, Both the UK and Germany try to sway the Japanese,who play one off of the other, one of the things the Japanese want is the “Jewish Science” and any remaining people, plus the technology behind the German V series rockets, Japan has always had their eye on taking out the US Navy so they can “own” the Pacific, and Australia and New Zealand.

    Germany moves into the middle east which solves their oil problem, they promise to supply oil to Japan which combined with the Jewish Science wins Japan over to support Germany, into attacking Eastern Russia

    • chrishanger January 23, 2014 at 7:59 pm #

      Cool There isn’t much point in attacking Russia, though – the Rump Russians are in no state to resist either Germany or Japan. Of course, Japan might insist that Russia surrender territory (under German pressure) as their price for involvement. Chris > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:19:46 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

  2. Terry January 23, 2014 at 6:43 pm #

    go for it Chris…just another series for me to follow!! LOL

  3. David Power January 23, 2014 at 7:54 pm #

    Hmm, sounds interesting. Don’t forget that in our timeline, transistors started appearing around 1948. The German physicists Herbert Mataré and Heinrich Welker were working for french company when they worked on early transistors in 1948. So with you could have them developed all sorts of goodies , including hand held radio’s, spy satellites, computers, advance fire control radar/computers etc for the german reich in your alternate history.

  4. Keith Douglas January 23, 2014 at 9:44 pm #

    Would there be a Jewish state in the middle-east (I am trying to remember from the novel, but can’t). There was heavy Jewish immigration to Palestine before and during the WW2; I see no reason for that to stop. If you are going to centre a story in the middle-east you will have to take into account the

    If Britain and Japan had not gone to war Malaysia would still be under British rule. Did the Indian 1943 famine happen in your timeline? Would it be realistic for the British to amass an army in Asia (A Grand Army of the Commenwealth) and use something similar to the Khans’ invasion routes to attack Germany through Russia.

    • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 5:07 pm #

      I don’t think so. My history of the foundation of Israel is a little shaky, but didn’t they get a lot of refugees from Germany after the end of WW2? In this timeline, the Holocaust would have been far more complete, with most of the survivors of OTL killed by the Nazis. I think (in a rational world) the British might have been better advised to send the Jews to South Africa or Australia in this timeline. Chris > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 21:44:40 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Daniel January 24, 2014 at 6:07 pm #

        The state of Israel started forming pretty early, there were large scale immigration after WWI actually. So there would be plenty of Jews in Palestine already in 1950. If anything a more complete Holocaust would make for a more radicalized Israel since the earlier immigrants were Zionist.

      • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 7:57 pm #

        Probably, yes. I don’t think there would be an independent Jewish state in this timeline though. Too many political problems. Chris > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 18:07:42 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Daniel January 24, 2014 at 8:24 pm #

        Agreed, there wouldn’t be an independent Israel state in this timeline. But you do have the possibility of Germany and UK playing the two Zionist groups off each other by promising them a Zionist state.

  5. Chris (Izzlyhauff) Kuntz January 23, 2014 at 10:29 pm #

    I think it would be interesting to bring the Korean war forward and have the different sides use the war as proxies, kind of how Vietnam was fought.

    • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm #

      It wouldn’t happen in this timeline – Korea is still a Japanese possession. China, on the other hand, might explode, or Iran. Chris > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 22:29:04 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

  6. Matthew W. Quinn January 23, 2014 at 11:23 pm #

    I imagine AH.com isn’t your favorite place, but there’s a really awesome timeline there called “The Anglo-American-Nazi War” that posits a Soviet collapse (due to Stalin losing it and purging people) after Stalingrad.

    That comment about transistors reminded me of just how SOL the Nazis end up in that timeline due to the Allied advantage in electronics.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Falternatehistory.com%2Fdiscussion%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D153277%26d%3D1315706063&ei=qqPhUqmFF_LMsATW4IDYDw&usg=AFQjCNHWnFzGwJ6erV1BPFeg2jORZ1el4A&sig2=6kfRYb-TXPZgtc8i2lcUHQ&bvm=bv.59930103,d.cWc&cad=rja

    That’s the whole timeline in a PDF. If it doesn’t work, just Google “Anglo-American Nazi War.”

    The scientific failures a longer-lived Nazi regime will experience due to their ideology on top of free societies’ general advantage because they let people live up to their full potential (some semi-literate Russian serf is not going to become a space-program star in this world) are going to be a real problem.

    If you’re going to write a sequel to “Invasion 1950,” you might want to take this into account even if you don’t take it as far (which, based on how I remember you described the Nazi war machine functioning, isn’t as extreme as CalBear’s take).

    BTW, depending on the peace treaties that ended the war (I can’t remember the fate of the Jews in your world), there might be a lot of Jews in the Middle East itching to get back at the Nazis that kicked the out of their homes.

    • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 7:58 pm #

      I’m reading it now. Not the same idea, though, so we will see. Chris > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 23:23:36 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Matthew W. Quinn January 24, 2014 at 11:03 pm #

        I wasn’t suggesting you write something just like it. I’m using it as an example of just how insane and anti-science a victorious Nazi Germany can get, especially if they marginalize the sane people, and how that could be their doom.

        It’s been a long time since I’ve read “Invasion 1950” but I do remember Rommel was the commander. That means the regime didn’t replace the regular Army with the Waffen SS at the very least. I’m thinking your Nazi Germany is a bit less psychotic than CalBear’s.

      • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 11:31 pm #

        Just a bit less, yes. I think Himmler is going to be a little uneasy in power at first, because he isn’t Hitler. Long term, though … watch out for fireworks. Chris > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 23:03:03 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

  7. Daniel Silver January 24, 2014 at 4:17 am #

    I think an atomic Germany would be able to keep Britain from attacking the continent, so that would be a good direction to go, with Britain needing to stop the program or risk Germany nuking London.

    The Middle Eastern direction makes sense, you could explore how the Muslims would react to Nazi occupation and as Matthew pointed out there would be radicalized Jews in the Middle East at this point. A really interesting group to examine would be the Irgun militia which was a Zionist paramilitary organization which was founded in 1931 and so would have been well established by 1950. An even more interesting group is the Lehi or Sten Gang that split off from Irgun in 1940, they were very anti-British and actually tried to ally themselves with Nazi Germany. They wanted to found a Jewish totalitarian state. You could have a whole story line about how these two Zionist groups fight each other.

    • Matthew W. Quinn January 24, 2014 at 2:26 pm #

      And if Germany nukes London and the British have a bomb of their own, Hamburg or Berlin is going to get it. Nukes at this point are a bigger bomb due to their lack of numbers and relatively low explosive power, so we might have a protracted version of 1944 with aircraft atomics on Germany and V-weapon atomics on Britain rather than MAD.

      (Also, depending on how much damage they do to each other’s homelands, maybe some kind of agreement to use them on the battlefield only. In which case the Middle East in Chris’s scenario is going to see some mayhem.)

      Given the Nazis’ ideological hang-ups and possible dissent/sabotage among the scientists (i.e. Heisenberg), I’m thinking Britain is going to get the bomb first. Even if Tube Alloys ended up on the back-burner during the long peace, the invasion shock is going to get it a lot of resources.

      • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 7:42 pm #

        Depends, I think. The question is delivery. Can they make a nuke small enough to put on a 1950s rocket? Chris > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 14:26:17 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Daniel January 24, 2014 at 8:30 pm #

        The V-2 rocket had a payload weight of 2,200 pounds, the Little Boy atomic bomb was 9,700 pounds. The V-3 design would have to be a significant improvement on the V-2.

  8. Daniel Silver January 24, 2014 at 4:24 am #

    I don’t think Germany would launch a Pearl Harbor like attack and would instead focus on the Middle East. I also think the satellites could be done, Sputnik was launched in 1957 after all and Germany would still have Wernher von Braun.

    • chrishanger January 24, 2014 at 7:57 pm #

      Probably, yes. The trick is getting the US into the war. Chris > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 04:24:41 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Daniel January 24, 2014 at 8:44 pm #

        There have been those who said that the US entry into WWII on the side of England was due to the Lend Lease deal. America sent supplies to England and the USSR in return for technology and rare metals and gems. During WWII there was also a purchase of islands by the UK that were then transferred to the US, at no charge, such as Diego Garcia, just south of India, that continues to serve as a valuable US naval base. Maybe the US gets brought into the war by the UK offering more technology and land.

      • Matthew W. Quinn January 24, 2014 at 11:06 pm #

        I second the Lend-Lease post. Even before Pearl Harbor, there were incidents like the Reuben James.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_%28DD-245%29

        Even if the war ended before the isolationist US could get involved in your timeline, the actual *invasion of Britain* on top of the stream of horror stories no doubt pouring off the Continent might change opinions. And if the US supports Britain even materially, the Germans are going to try to interfere…

        They might not get as lucky this time around as they did after the Reuben James incident. Wars have been started for less.

  9. Chris (Izzlyhauff) Kuntz January 24, 2014 at 10:45 pm #

    I like the idea of UK getting the US involved by “selling” them Australia and/or New Zealand, which would then put them in conflict with Japan, who would then ally with Germany to fight US and UK.

  10. sam January 25, 2014 at 5:01 am #

    How do you tackle segregation politics in the US. Without Americas involvement in WWII you wouldn’t have American blacks fighting for “freedom” against the Natzis that then lead to integration of the armed forces and other various consequences that stemed from their involvement? Leading all the way to Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.

    • chrishanger January 25, 2014 at 5:19 pm #

      Interesting thought, particularly as the Nazis would be quite appealing to some groups and very revolting to others. Chris > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 05:01:59 +0000 > To: christopher_g_nuttall@hotmail.com >

      • Matthew W. Quinn January 25, 2014 at 7:32 pm #

        The Nazis sure as heck aren’t going to be appealing to American blacks, but the Japanese did try in our history to appeal to African-Americans (however ineffectively). Elijah Muhammad did time for sedition for preaching in favor of the Empire of Japan and encouraging blacks to resist the draft.

        The Nazis might try to appeal to American racists like the Klan to agitate against the government going to war in favor of “race traitors” (depending on what steps the British Empire has undertaken to give better representation to non-whites, like making India a dominion), Jews, etc.

        However, if Himmler’s Reich starts openly attacking Christians, making human sacrifices to the Norse gods, etc. (or even trying to create some neo-Marcionite type of “Christianity” that explicitly rejects the Jewish Scriptures–easier to swallow than overt paganism or occultism), that’s going to cause the Nazis massive PR problems among American whites.

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